A conversation between Tomorn Sookapreecha, editor at GM magazine, and Sulaiporn Chonwilai, activist

F: Are homosexuals more accepted in society today? We see more homosexuals, but it does not mean that we accept them more. Could you please speak on the topic of sexuality, seeing as you are a columnist who has discussed this subject matter thoroughly in the past, such as for example, the topic of ≥sex friends.≤

M: At first, I spoke with the editor of the magazine, ≥A Day Weekly,≤ regarding the ≥Genderism≤ column in ≥A Day Weekly≤ related to the subject of sexuality, in which I have a great personal interest. It seems that this topic can be related to many other themes in society, such as consumerism, capitalism, and violence. When we speak about sexuality, it can be connected to something else that we have never considered before.

F: It seems that if you were to write an article, you would find some way to write about gender sexuality.

M: You must understand that ≥gender sexuality≤ designates a group of people who are interested in gender in both the aspects of gender and sexuality.

F: If you were to translate and explain ≥gender≤ in Thai, how would you define it?

M: People who have a fanatical interest in the differences between the sexes.

F: ≥Gender≤ relates to condition or status of sexuality.

M: If I were to write about gender, it can be linked to politics and the environment. When we speak about sexuality, we can relate it to many situations.

F: When we speak about pollution or unsanitary conditions in the cities, it is possible that the pollution could potentially affect the chromosomes of the future generation, which could possibly influence a personπs sexuality and incline them to be more homosexual.

M: With all of the deaths in the southern part of Thailand, why does it seem that the only people who have died are males?

F: How is it that the urban environment of the city seems to open up more to homosexuals, giving them more space and opportunities for them to live as they wish as homosexuals?

M: What is interesting is how we consider what is ≥open,≤ ≥closed,≤ or ≥sometimes closed, sometimes open.≤ I have traveled to many countries and observed what seemed to be areas inhabited by many gay people, and what I find in my travels fascinates me. The differences found in each place are clear.

V: Are you talking about gay men or lesbians who frequent a business district of a city because that is where they happen to be working?

Both: We are discussing the homosexual community in general, without distinction between gay men or lesbian women.

M: The gay communities in other countries also include lesbian communities.

F: In Thailand, such lesbian communities do not exist and perhaps may never exist.

M: The question of ≥why are there no lesbian communities in Thailand?≤ will surely arise. To answer this question, we must first discuss the gay community. In areas frequented by gay men and lesbians, we do not find only entertainment venues, such as discotheques and pubs; there are people who live in that area and there are venues that cater to the gay lifestyle. There are music stores that sell CDs that they like, there are coffee shops and book stores that carry books of interest to them. There are many, many shops that they especially like. There are many places that seem to fit the gay lifestyle which makes them feel at home, even though they are away from their hometown, giving them a sense of comfort and convenience so that they donπt have to venture elsewhere. But in the case of the gay community in Thailand, whether in Silom or elsewhere, such as Saphan Kwai or Ram Khamhaeng, it is not the same situation. There are only entertainment venues, which gays usually frequent as part of their nightlife and can add to the sense of ≥ghosts see ghosts.≤

F: Many people may be confused as to what ≥ghosts see ghosts≤ means. Could you please explain?

M: ≥Ghosts see ghosts≤ relates to the sense that homosexuals seem to have that can detect whether other people are gay, even if just in passing.

F: Even just in passing, they can tell.

M: When they pass one another, they can detect people of the same kind. The question that comes up is ≥why are gays in Thailand not like gays in other countries?≤ The answer is in how we open, how we close, and how we sometimes open or sometimes close the doors to gay people in our society. In reality, the western world is not that much more advanced than we are. In the past, people of power had frequently oppressed gay people, much more than Thailand had, as if ≥closing≤ their opportunities to be accepted in society at large, such as in the case of England or the U.S. This kind of oppression leads to unrest, which leads to conflict and fighting, and the gay community inevitably develops. But in Thailand, indifference towards homosexuals exists, so that there is neither support nor oppression; the gay community in Thailand therefore experiences how society ≥sometimes opens or sometimes closes≤ the doors to them, hence the title of this project. Gay people in Thailand can buy CDs of particular interest to them anywhere; there is no need to stick to just a designated gay community. We cannot say whether this phenomenon exists because we have controlled them so much that we can no longer tell that we are exerting control, as if done automatically. The feeling of being gay in Thailand, unlike in other places, is not as tangible, because it is not clear whether they are being controlled or oppressed or supported.

F: So do the differences found in the gay community in Thailand relate to how Thai society accepts or does not accept the concept of homosexuality?

M: To accept or to not accept is a rather interesting topic. The gay lifestyle has gotten more commercial in that it has been incorporated in the concept of a ≥metrosexual≤ lifestyle. It seems to sell the lifestyle of homosexuals in indicating how to dress, how to live, and how to make decisions more meticulously. What is intriguing is that, even though we sell the gay lifestyle, we have no clear concept of what ≥gay≤ really means, what kind of people this includes, and if the metrosexual lifestyle is actually an accurate portrayal of how gay people really live their lives. The answer is that it is not true at all. The term ≥metrosexual≤ designates only homosexuals who live in the metropolitan area, only homosexuals who live in the middle part, only homosexuals who are affluent enough to afford things to doll themselves up, even just to change their look enough to frequent Silom Soi 2. What is interesting is that we accept those gay people who seem to fit the gay stereotype as measured by consumerism and marketing, whose lifestyle we can sell, but we do not accept everything that is included in being gay. Relating to selling clothing or other goods in demand, if it can be sold, it will be sold because it fits the current trend; for example, if people suddenly love animals, fur clothing will become unpopular and will not be bought.

F: Like spas and yoga.

M: Health is also popular, because people are currently preoccupied with maintaining their health and being fit. The gay lifestyle is being sold in the same manner.

F: It seems that this is observable in everyday life, seen, for example, in how some video rental stores have a larger section of gay interest movies, which existed very rarely in the past, if at all. Before, we had to ask the clerk whether the store carried gay or lesbian-interest movies, but today, this movie genre could actually constitute the largest portion of movie rentals and generate the biggest revenue for the store. It is interesting, however, that even though we can see the big picture that gay people are more prevalent in our society, we cannot seem to accept them. We see that there are more gay people in the middle class and in the city. We can speak of lesbian women in a similar sense, but less so than gay men, and they seem to be less accepted than gay men. Could you possibly explain why?

M: When we speak of this subject, we face opposition from women, because they have historically been restricted to the home, and they still are. We see women writers fighting the idea of the woman only in the home. I believe that if women really wanted to stay home, take care of the house and their husbands, they can do so. But in reality, the majority of Thai women is being misled and is not aware that they are being misled. They are trying to fool themselves and other people that they are comfortable where they stand, which leads us to understand why lesbians have yet to assert themselves or obtain some kind of designated public space that gay men seem to have. Because most women are restricted to the home, if lesbians wanted to congregate, they need to meet in secret.

F: If we consider whether lesbians need the same kind of public space as gay men do, the answer is probably no, because the lesbian lifestyle is not like the gay lifestyle, and the sense of being female is different than the sense of being male, and it may not be necessary. Or maybe because lesbians are still being oppressed in many other aspects, including the sense of being a woman. Escaping from this kind of oppression could be very difficult. Like openly gay men, openly lesbian women tend to be middle class and tend to use the Internet as a means to express themselves, especially in the past five to ten years, through websites that allow these women to arrange meetings and monthly parties. These monthly parties let women go out and meet other women in the community. While gay men tend to be middle class and have some sort of public domain, lesbian women also tend to be from the middle class and have a distinct way of meeting and socializing with one another.

M: Does this mean that Thai women are more comfortable in their own space than in public?

F: It is uncertain whether it is more comfortable or not, because the sense of being a woman is somewhat controlled by the family in that a woman must take care of her parents or she must marry. Thai women do not find themselves out as much in public as do men. Thai women are oppressed by this as well.

M: Thai women should be happy that there is a female vice-president of the Thai Parliament, which shows that Thai women are now greatly recognized in society. For the most part, are Thai women happier in private spaces or in public spaces?

F: For the most part, Thai women might not be satisfied with private spaces, but they are still unable to find acceptance in the public space. Because of this, the way out for Thai lesbian women is having money, allowing them to live normal lives like in the news in which a wealthy Thai ≥tom≤ (tomboy) is accepted in society despite having been previously engaged and married to another woman. Nobody commented about her being a ≥tom,≤ but instead talked about how many carats her diamond engagement ring had and other such things.

M: This means that there are underlying issues.

F: Wealthy people are able to have their own lifestyle as long as it doesnπt surpass the limits of social acceptance.

F: When you see women holdings hands, how do you feel? Or when you see a woman who has some characteristics of a ≥tom≤ holding the hands of a cute girl, how do you feel? Are these two feelings the same? In the past, Thai society might not have thought twice about women holding hands, but now this act is becoming more noticed by society, catching the eye of more people and causing them to question whether or not they are friends or lovers.

M: And also on Valentineπs Day, there is greater talk and criticism of couples spending time together alone: of men with women, men with men, and women with women. What can be observed nowadays is more men holding hands with men in the sense of lovers. The majority of these men are not more than 18-19 years old. They can be seen at Siam Discovery and Major Ratchayothin. I have seen it many times, with many couples, and in greater numbers. Perhaps this reflects a greater acceptance of them? I once followed one such couple at Siam Discovery who held hands from the first floor all the way up until the cinema floor to watch a movie together. Other people looked at them as if they wanted them to stop holding hands, being this a way of reinforcing the social norm. But if it was a man and a woman holding hands, they might have been pleased and praised that they really loved each other. But in the eyes of those watching the two men holding hands, it was as if they shouldnπt have done it and that the people didnπt want them to do such a thing.

F: Are you sure that the people actually looked at these two men and werenπt looking at other people?

M: From what I saw, their eyes expressed a sense of speechlessness that these two men dared to do something like this.

V: In Thailand, are gays more accepted than lesbians?

F: Do you think that gays are more accepted than lesbians? Why does Thai society accept gays more so than lesbians?

M: In the past, Thai society saw women as ≥buffalo≤ and men as people. Women were animals, but men were human beings, which wasnπt any different from Western society. Because of this, the act of men reducing their value as humans to become a sort of animal, the act of becoming a transvestite, was more opposed.

F: You didnπt answer the question. What you just said was the reason for why gays werenπt accepted by society.

M: That women can hold hands, but men canπt hold hands doesnπt mean that women who hold hands are more socially accepted than men who hold hands. Women were able to hold hands in the past because society didnπt pay attention to the characteristics of the individual.

F: Looking on the surface, it seems like society doesnπt criticize women, but in reality, thatπs because women are considered insignificant.

M: But if society realizes that these two have a relationship, then disaster awaits them. In the past and during King Chulalongkorn the Fifthπs reign, if a woman was caught writing love poems to another woman, she would be punished by having her nails stabbed by metal chisels, being whipped, and by being placed in a basket to be kicked around by elephants, and being burned. This was done because society did not accept this kind of relationship.

F: Even though women werenπt verbally criticized, the fact that they werenπt recognized at all made it worse.

F: Does the practice of dressing up as the opposite sex in Thai plays play a role in causing society to be more accepting of gays? In Chinese society, the actors in plays within the court and plays performed by the common people dress up as the opposite sex, just like in Thailand where the plays by the common people performed by only male actors and the plays within the court performed by only females feature dressing up as the opposite sex. Do these plays allow gays to be more accepted? In plays that feature both male and female actors, there is a character that dresses up as a member of the opposite sex: a male might dress up as a female and a female might dress up as a male.

M: These theatrical performances are a way of passing down cultural knowledge orally. Only men were the only ones who were educated. Women were not people, but animals. They did not need to learn. But in the royal court, the king was a male, and so, liked to watch women. Thatπs the only reason.

V: Can I ask you to discuss the way that the government accepts gays in Thailand?

M: How do gays and metros not get along? When gays wish to organize a gay parade or gay festival in order to express themselves and advertise their businesses and try to ask for permission to close off Silom Road, we find that the government gives them a very small area to work with, such as only half a street where one canπt walk very much. Even though some gays and other group want to use the Victory Monument to symbolize their fight, they are not accepted at all. But if this is compared to the Bangkok Fashion festival, in which very many roads were closed off, we soon begin to ask ourselves, are the floats in the Bangkok Fashion Parade created and dressed by gays? Is the way of organizing the parade just like that of a gay festival? The glitz and the glamour of Bangkok Fashion comes from designers who are gay and the models who are mostly gay, all of which isnπt any different from that of gay festivals. The image that is promoted is just like that of a gay festival, but receives greater support, because it does not include the word ≥gay≤ in it. Both are about fashion. In Thailand, gays have not been violently oppressed or prohibited from participating in parades, but they havenπt been allowed by the government to come out as gays. Nobody knows that Bangkok Fashion is the work of Thai gays.

F: The revenue earned by the Thai economy comes from the expertise of Thai gays.

M: Yet, gays are not accepted within the country, unless thereπs mention of goods and merchandise.

F: Even if the work of gays deals with goods and merchandise, Thailand doesnπt recognize it as goods and merchandise.

M: If these goods and merchandise can be sold under any other name, it will receive greater acceptance, just like how the government had said that Thai prostitutes use their vaginas to help the country. But as for gays, thereπs no mention of it.

F: Thereπs a saying that was borrowed a foreign scholar: ≥Thai society tolerates transvestites and tolerates gays, but does not accept them.≤ Do you feel the same?

M: In reality, it could possibly be a problem. Not tolerating might be good so that a stronger opposition can form, allowing it to become a bigger issue. In reality, itπs a problem between generations: most parents arenπt gay and donπt want their children to be gay; for children who are gay born from parents who arenπt gay it is already a conflict. In this situation, nobody can really stand up to the fact that their children are gay; change must come slowly and gradually. This problem of gays not being accepted cannot be easily solved and does not have an end.

F: Another issue that we shouldnπt overlook is the expansion of gay influence in many areas, such as the publishing of gay pocketbooks, the increase in the number of gay films imported from abroad, and the increased production of gay films within Thailand itself. As someone involved in the media, how do you view this? Where will this lead to? How will society change, and in which way?

M: Iπm not sure.

F: Many times, #1 bestselling books are gay books. Will publishing house have to change their publishing trends? Or change to publish books on dharma for gays, or something like that?

M: Itπs a kind of fight to negotiate for the right to be accepted in society, but the total acceptance by the whole society is rather difficult because the gap between the views of the previous generation and of this generation will still probably exist.

M: There are two types: pocketbooks and magazines. Today, magazines for gays hardly exist.

F: I havenπt noticed at all.

M: Itπs more like magazines with photos of gay models instead. But pocketbooks will contain more content on gay life, and there are also Japanese comics with gay stories which can be sold without any restrictions.

F: But these are unable to compete with other types of books in the market, because consumers choose what they want to consume.

M: As for gay-interest magazines, these no longer exist. Gays now read magazines for men, such as Image and Maxim. I used to design a website for Image, and the messages were produced by gays. This allowed for these magazines to survive in the market.

F: We should do what Image has done: lak-ka-pid lak-ka-perd, which has a little bit of this community and a little bit of that community.

M: In reality, the meaning of lak-ka-pid lak-ka-perd is unclear: certain/uncertain, sure/unsure, open/not open, closed/not closed, all of which show that there should be some good things about it. It just depends on how we choose to use it. Our society is just like lak-ka-pid lak-ka-perd, not extreme in any one direction, which is how our society has been able to survive without any violence but has hidden conflicts deep down under the surface. If we choose to lak-ka-pid lak-ka-perd in the future, the hidden conflicts will become more violent ones and whose outcomes are unclear. We must open ourselves to accept the conditions that have been repressed by the practice of lak-ka-pid lak-ka-perd. We should open ourselves up in the lak-ka-pid lak-ka-perd fashion: slowly open ourselves up gradually, but without complete acceptance. Itπs not necessary to cover it up to create more problems. This might be a good Thai solution to this problem.

F: In my opinion, the term lak-ka-pid lak-ka-perd covers a gray area. Everyone is able to be in this space, but we are the ones who can choose how to open or how to close ourselves by allowing those who are in that space to decide for themselves if they want to open or close themselves, such as gays and lesbians choosing come out in public to reveal themselves to others. But everyoneπs condition is not the same, and we shouldnπt tell others what to do and how to do it. This, I donπt agree with. Coming out and expressing oneπs love for a member of the same sex in a public place encompasses many levels. For example, when coming out to oneπs friends, we must choose friends who are willing to accept it; if parents are able to accept it already, then it is possible to let other people know about it. I see that lak-ka-pid lak-ka-perd is a good thing, but I only wish that you donπt command or dominate others; you should let the others decide and choose how to open or close by themselves.

M: For example, the coming out of gays and lesbians and Pa, our Superstar, who has come out and spoken about his lover. Some gay groups say heπs not brave enough to come all the way out, asking why he hasnπt become the voice of the gay community. The act of coming out is different for each person. It doesnπt mean that one comes out with everything and immediately. For example, some spend every night flirting with other men on Silom Soi 2, but have never told their parents, while others have told their parents everything: both have come out, but the image of the coming out of each person is different. We should use the Thai way of compromise, or lak-ka-pid lak-ka-perd, with the process of coming out. Some people wish to stay in the closet, while others wish to come out of the closet; itπs up to that person.